I have a PowerG (PG9985) water sensor connected to a Qolsys IQ2+ panel.
Connection shows good.
Battery tests good.
I can pick up the sensor and touch the two leads together to generate an alarm condition.
In other words, it appears to work properly.
Problem is I had a water issue in the basement today. Condensate line apparently froze and the the pump overflowed. I now have someone coming to rip up carpet.
The PG9985 generated no alarm condition, despite sitting in standing water. Thank goodness for our cheap manual units that all went off. Unfortunately, we didn’t hear it until we went downstairs this morning.
This panel can beep all day long for a low battery, while a flood alarm gets nothing.
I have two homes with the same equipment setup. Just realized I only moved one home over the Surety. The one in question was still with my old provider (just cancelled this morning).
My original plan was to move this home to Surety, and I thought I already had. Now I’m wondering if monitoring is even necessary. If the system doesn’t work, there is nothing to monitor.
Placement can’t be the issue. The sensor was sitting in water. Not very deep, but deep enough to touch the contacts. Nothing on the panel, no alarm sent to central station.
Battery (power) is fine. Connection to panel is fine. I touched the contact points with a screwdriver and the panel immediately went into alarm. The flood alarm works, just not with water. Strange.
Since it was in the basement, we didn’t find out until this morning when we heard the backup alarms. Damage is only about $1,000. If we relied solely on the monitoring system, things about have been considerably worse. I’m very disappointed with this Qolsys/PowerG junk. It will drive you crazy over a low battery, but completely fail on critical issues.
As mentioned, there is no activity reported in the panel or alarm.com account. Only the manual activation I did to test the sensor shows up.
Sensor is programmed properly. If I manually activate it with a screwdriver, the alarm goes into alert mode. Alarm.com sees the alarm, and I get notified. Alarm status must be cleared on the panel.
The problem is this only happens if I manually active the sensor with something like a screwdriver touching the two pins.
The sensor was sitting in water when I discovered the flood, probably for a few hours. Nothing - no alarm, no notice, no record of a problem. Nearby water alarms (cheap, Home Depot types that are not connected) in the same water all activated. Only the connected, powerG sensor did nothing.
If it was billed as a screwdriver detector, it gets a five-start rating. As a water sensor, it fails miserably.
I’m trying to understand what happened and how to fix the issue. I’m strongly considering dumping all this equipment and find a more reliable system. As expensive as a replacement would be, it is still less than the damage caused had I been away and the problem continued for a few days instead of a few hours.
Based on the description of events through previous testing via the screwdriver, the panel is working as it should and communicating with Alarm.com. The sensor is sending an alarm signal when being tripped (via screwdriver) and is causing an alarm state at the panel, indicating the sensor is signaling. Assuming sensor signaling is stable, then the issue might be one of the following:
Both probes on the sensor portion were not touching water when the event occurred
The device is experiencing a hardware issue such as the sensor cable with probe not being connected to the transmitter properly
PG9985 Hardware failure
Have you tested the PG9985 sensor in a real scenario with water previously, as it is mounted?
When testing where alarm triggers are involved, you will want to place your monitoring account on test mode to avoid false dispatch.
Have nothing of value to add on the possible cause of the failure, but in the future it’s always wise to test these sensors when newly installed using a wet paper towel to confirm they work properly. I did have a flood sensor from another manufacturer other than DSC that also did not work in real conditions, yet could be tripped by shorting the contacts with a metal object. Made no sense to me either. Figured it was a fluke, but perhaps these sorts of contacts need to be tested periodically.
Thanks for the info. It is actually very helpful to know that, while unlikely, it is possible for a sensor to fail in real life conditions while still working by shorting the contacts.
I’ll try some tests with this sensor to see if I can figure out what went wrong. Still need to figure out a more reliable solution for trouble notifications. I no longer trust these sensors.
My condensate pump is now in a large basin. That will at least buy me some time in the event of a failure.
Is there a flood detector other than a PG9985 that will work with a Qolsys IQ2+ panel (319.5MHz version)?
Yes sir, both the ELK-319WA and the Qolsys S-line 319.5 flood sensor. Can also run a hardwired flood sensor via a hardwire converter. I’m running all of the above in different applications throughout my property. All have their own advantages and disadvantages.
Fairly big price spread between the three options.
PG $80-90
Qolsys $53 (only one I find on the Surety website)
ELK $30-35
I’m happy to pay more for a better, more reliable product. I’d like to think “you get what you pay for,” but does that really apply here? Does this price difference reflect quality? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?
Overall, when compared to 319.5MHz and 319.5MHz S-Line, PowerG sensors are going to boast greater communication range with a more robust encryption scheme, while typically they have a higher up-front cost.
Essentially, battery life is not as great, I don’t remember if you get a low battery notification with the Elk sensor. The contact head is maybe 1/3 the size and the transmitter is 1/2 the size so it doesn’t stand out like a sore thumb in the open is it’s biggest advantage. Overall the PG sensors are light years better, but this is one of those cases where the advantages may not be that important in most cases. In this one man’s opinion and limited experience.
Thanks much for all the information. Very helpful.
I have just ordered a PD9985 and an ELK. Will use both and see how it goes.
The flood potential is in an unfinished utility room in the basement. I plan to build a “silicone wall” (a 1/2” to 1” high bead of silicone) around the furnace and water heater. This should allow for a deeper pool of standing water in the event of another flood, before it overflows into the finished area. This should give a sensor plenty of water to work with.
I also placed my condensate pump in a large bin. One flood sensor will also be placed in the bin. This will contain several gallons of water problems and the sensor will eventually be totally submerged. I figure if it doesn’t work then, there’s nothing more I can do. If it does work as intended, I will also have more time to address the problem.
Ideally, I’d like to install a floor drain. That seems to be prohibitively expensive - even if I could find a local contractor to take on the project.
Just a thought from a bystander… if you have the source of the water in a bin of some sort, perhaps a float switch may work. That switch may also work inside your condensate pump, depending…
Examples:
Clip on style: Amazon.com
and Wire tie type for around a pipe: Amazon.com
I use them and connected it to an inexpensive IQ Mini Extended or PG9945 or even a takeover module if you have an open zone. This is cheaper if you have something like this already on hand, of course.
Also your condensate pump may have an internal overflow switch of its own you may be able to wire into a sensor input, depending on the model. (Intended to actually break your thermostat connection to shut down your furnace/AC, but it can be wired into an alarm sensor and programmed as a flood group/zone.)
What kind of system is generating condensate with an external condensate pump during a time of year when the condensate pipe will freeze?
How did you have the sensor mounted? Fixed to the floor? Your comment about picking it up sound like it’s loose.
Typically, with equipment that generates condensate that equipment has or should have wired auto shutoff sensors in the overflow pan where the condensate pump usually lives. You sound like you have had similar problems in the past if you have several redundant water sensors in this space. If your condensate pump is not in a pan I might suggest placing it in a pan and adding the Shutoff switch to the pan. You may also want to place a wired shutoff sensor near this equipment. I might also suggest upgrading or properly wiring your condensate pump with one that has the built in safety shutoff switch that will turn off the equipment when the secondary safety float trips because the line is blocked and the pump cannot pump. Like a DiversiTech CP‑22.
There are several typical safety features you don’t seem to have in place that could have prevented the water issue.
The flood alarm battery is not low. The mystery beeping for low batteries was/is for window sensors.
No. They look brand new.
It is now. Hindsight 202/20 and all that. Of numerous systems I have or have experience with, I’ve never seen an install that had the pump in a pan. Obvious a good idea, but still uncommon in my experience. In the absence of a working alarm, all a pan does is delay the inevitable.
The basement has no floor drain. The pump must discharge outside. We recently had quite a bit of snow, and my original thought was that a drift blocked the line and caused a freeze. This ended up not being the case. There was a blockage in the line. Not exactly sure how or where, but water was not flowing. The line has been replaced.
Floor is cement. The sensor is affixed to a 2x4 - same as if it was a 2x4 bottom plate. The sensor is properly positioned for floor contact.
All of which are not typical for installations in my area, and have never been suggested by builders or contractors. In retrospect, these are obvious solutions and will be implemented going forward.
Not sure what to tell you. This is standard for my area (northeast US). Been running just fine for 25 years in this house, and decades more in other homes I have lived in or have knowledge of.
I should also note that my previous water problem was due to a failed hot water heater. That’s the reason for multiple water alarms. Contractors blamed the problem on other issues, but I finally figured out the problem was the bottom of the heater developed a hole.
While I will definitely explore solutions for my condensate pumps, that is only part of the issue. There is also a dehumidifier and humidifier that needs to be accounted for. The humdifier is attached to the furnace, so I have to see if a furnace shut-off will also prevent water from flowing through that unit.
Still need a way to shut off the dehumidifier. Not sure what can be done to account for a failed hot water heater. A valve would stop the flow, but there is still 75 gallons in the tank that can’t be stopped.
Back to the original point, it is still troubling that the flood sensor was sitting in water and never triggered an alarm. All the other items are valid prevention measures, but not done anything about the sensor. Dehumidifier would still be running. Failed water heater would still pour out.