I completely agree that in theory 30ft of 18AWG wire is not the cause of the problem. I didn’t know the length or gauge of the wire so I had to ask. But that doesn’t rule out the other possible problems I listed.
Have they been in touch with whomever is most familiar with their hardware/firmware design for the new 16F? I am sorry to push back a bit, but I am a degreed Electrical Engineer (albeit retired, and I hope I will not end up embarrassing myself by saying this ) and don’t feel this issue is being addressed with sufficient data analysis by Qolsys.
The person I spoke with today is one of their best hardware people. He’s seen this behavior before in cases where the wall power wasn’t steady due to a bad connection or too much voltage drop over a long wire.
Don’t worry, there’s nothing wrong with pushing back. I’m sorry this has been so difficult. As an engineer I hope you can appreciate our desire to isolate the problem with controlled experiments.
If it’s not too much trouble, yes I would appreciate if you would try temporarily connecting the transformer to the 16F with a separate, short wire. I don’t mean permanently, I just mean run an extension cord to the 16F and hook it up temporarily for a test. If possible, plug it the extension cord into a different outlet.
Otherwise, I’m happy to send a replacement Hardwire 16F in case the problem is with the device itself or the transformer. I doubt it’s a design problem because there are tons of these things out there working without this issue.
Good news! As requested, I plugged the 16-F power adapter into a long extension cord from a different outlet and the adapter output directly into the 16-F power input, with very short wire run. See photo.
Surprisingly enough (at least for me), the LB/EoLB notifications issue has disappeared (9 hours of observation so far). It seems that Roy was right and I was too skeptical…
I will keep monitoring the system, but I am now leaning toward declaring the problem gone and no parts replacement needed.
However, since there is no power outlet anywhere near the 16-F, I need to figure out a permanent solution.
You mentioned: “I doubt it’s a design problem because there are tons of these things out there working without this issue.” Did you mean tons of the new version of the 16-F?
I’d like to hear your thoughts, but it seems like the ball is in my court on this issue now.
Finally (see my previous post), I still would like to know if it is normal for all the Low Battery notifications to disappear in the Panel 2 Plus History after a few hours, sometime less (but the EoLB notifications stay).
Awesome! We’re not done yet but that’s hugely helpful. Thank you.
We still need to keep trying to isolate the cause of the problem. I think the easiest next step would be to try the extension cord in the original outlet you had the transformer plugged in to.
We’ll work with Qolsys to try and get more info on the minimum requirements for wire length & gauge with the 16F.
I did mean there are tons of 16F’s out there. What do I mean by tons? Good question. The truth is I don’t know the exact number but it’s been out for about a year now and these things get installed every day. I would guess there are tens of thousands of them in the field but I don’t know. The 16F weighs about 1 pound so if there are at least 4,000 in the field then you could say there are tons of them.
I still would like to know if it is normal for all the Low Battery notifications to disappear in the Panel 2 Plus History after a few hours, sometime less (but the EoLB notifications stay).
I will have to check on this and follow up. I can’t say I’ve ever paid attention to that. I’ll let you know.
We still need to keep trying to isolate the cause of the problem. I think the easiest next step would be to try the extension cord in the original outlet you had the transformer plugged in to.
Totally agree and I am working on it. In fact this morning I did move the other end of the long extension cord to the original power strip/surge protector where the 16-F power adapter was before. Interestingly enough, I am using the same strip also for the Panel 2 Plus power adapter and wonder if there might be some interactions between the two (electrical noise?). After all they are both active electronic switching devices, not just passive AC to AC transformers.
I did mean there are tons of 16F’s out there.
My question was about how much use the new version of the 16-F has seen so far, as opposed to the old one, because I am still wondering if there is possibly a design weakness in the new version, not seen before. Perhaps not enough hysteresis in the circuit monitoring the battery voltage level, which would make it bounce back and forth, especially in the presence of electrical noise. But it is just speculation at this point…
I will let you know. Thanks for your dedication to solving this issue.
Testing will help confirm, but I can say based on prior experience with Qolsys products (especially the first generation panels and keypads, and the first release versions of the IQ Panel 2), they tend to provide power transformers which are rated for very nearly the exact voltage the device requires/considers the borderline for low voltage reports. The power loss over the cable is almost certainly the issue.
The original IQ panel could generally not have its power cable extended by more than 10 to 20 feet before running into power application issues, even over multiple conductor 18 AWG.
The IQ Panel 2 secondary keypad saw two separate changes to the power supply. It was originally a 5VDC supply which essentially could not be extended at all. They then updated it to 5.5VDC, then finally 7VDC, with the keypad accepting a 5-7VDC range of voltage.
The F has been the dominant model for some time now, (over a year I think) and this is not a common report.
After three days without any bogus LB/EoLB notifications, I concluded the configuration with the 16-F power adapter next to the 16-F (i.e. no long DC wire run), regardless of where its AC input comes from, is the winner. Because of access convenience and my desire to avoid an unsightly extension cable through the house, I have assembled a ~ 30’ long AC extension, between the original power strip/surge protector and the AC input of the power adapter, running it through my attic. It appears to be working.
My conclusions on this issue are:
the backup battery capacity is not critical;
the longer DC run, in conjunction with the two power adapters (for Panel 2 Plus and 16-F) being close to each other (in my case they were on the same power strip), must be avoided. I speculate in such case there is a higher level of electrical noise riding over a reduced DC voltage to the 16-F, which triggers the circuits of the 16-F into generating the unwanted LB-EoLB sequences, about once every hour, probably when the 16-F starts an internal battery check. (With the two power adapters far from each other, the long DC run does not seem to create the problem).
Unless the problem later resurfaces, I am considering this issue resolved.
The Hardwire 16-F power supply is 16vDC and the module itself needs at least 15.5vDC in order to operate correctly and not send in low battery messages. This means you can get about 40ft on 18/2 when calculating that under full load it will draw 1A.
) and don’t feel this issue is being addressed with sufficient data analysis by Qolsys.
